I started collecting and appreciating comic books during the 1980′s and, for me, Alan Moore and Frank Miller are a part of the high echelon of comic book greats who helped put the genre front and center in the mainstream media and have it be taken (at times) as a “serious” form of literature.
So recently when Miller gave his view on the Occupy Wall Street movement on his blog, I wondered if the ever opinionated Moore would give his thoughts about the protest movement or remark on Miller’s statement. On Honest Publishing.com he does both:
“Well, Frank Miller is someone whose work I’ve barely looked at for the past twenty years. I thought the Sin City stuff was unreconstructed misogyny, 300 appeared to be wildly ahistoric, homophobic and just completely misguided. I think that there has probably been a rather unpleasant sensibility apparent in Frank Miller’s work for quite a long time. Since I don’t have anything to do with the comics industry, I don’t have anything to do with the people in it. I heard about the latest outpourings regarding the Occupy movement. It’s about what I’d expect from him. It’s always seemed to me that the majority of the comics field, if you had to place them politically, you’d have to say centre-right. That would be as far towards the liberal end of the spectrum as they would go. I’ve never been in any way, I don’t even know if I’m centre-left. I’ve been outspoken about that since the beginning of my career. So yes I think it would be fair to say that me and Frank Miller have diametrically opposing views upon all sorts of things, but certainly upon the Occupy movement.
“As far as I can see, the Occupy movement is just ordinary people reclaiming rights which should always have been theirs. I can’t think of any reason why as a population we should be expected to stand by and see a gross reduction in the living standards of ourselves and our kids, possibly for generations, when the people who have got us into this have been rewarded for it; they’ve certainly not been punished in any way because they’re too big to fail. I think that the Occupy movement is, in one sense, the public saying that they should be the ones to decide who’s too big to fail. It’s a completely justified howl of moral outrage and it seems to be handled in a very intelligent, non-violent way, which is probably another reason why Frank Miller would be less than pleased with it. I’m sure if it had been a bunch of young, sociopathic vigilantes with Batman make-up on their faces, he’d be more in favour of it. We would definitely have to agree to differ on that one.”
I can’t say I’m shocked by Moore’s statement. What do you think of Alan Moore’s and Frank Miller’s views let me know in the comments section below.
SupermanSouvenirs.com
Nice to hear a perspective from someone intelligent,well rounded, well read, reasonable, not homophobic, not xenophobic and who doesn’t produce shitty comics.
Frank Miller’s opinion doesn’t really matter anymore.
TO whom it may concern:
Funny, I would say that everyone’s opinion should count, unless you’d embrace the authoritarian bullshit regime that most people find has placed our ecomomy in this mess.
Also, Mr. Moore’s playing himself by slamming Miller as homophobic and such. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
The opinion ‘doesn’t matter’ (as in doesn’t hold sway, is lacking in strength) when the person presents themselves as narrow-minded and frequently lacking in facts to back up their evidence. When Frank Miller mischaracterizes the OWS movement and its participants, as well as talks down to them, IN ADDITION to neither being affected by the movement nor having power to truly affect it, you can say that his opinion doesn’t matter. I would not seriously take into consideration literally every person’s opinion when trying to discuss every topic. You listen, discern whether or not they have something valid to contribute, and then go from there. As Miller has stated his opinion clearly, and he insists on having an opinion framed in muddle of incorrect information that he HAS to know is incorrect (or he doesn’t care to know is incorrect), why should we hold his opinion as valid?
Miller’s rant was not an opinion. It was a blatant piece of propaganda constructed completely of lies. Miller made no effort to make his statement in opinion form. He stated bald face lies as if they were fact.
And much of it is wildly hypocritical. Miller never served in any military, law enforcement or Search and Rescue group. Therefore by his own illogic he is guilty of cowardice.
Also the insults he falsely attributes to the OWS could factually be applied to the people who made him rich. Many of the people that bought his comic books and went to his movies have been forced to move back into their parents basements due to the sparsity of jobs and income created by the 1%.
Everyone’s opinion should count? I humbly disagree. I think I’m with Harlan Ellison on this one “You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
I disagree with Harlan Ellison/you to a certain extent. “You are entitled to any opinion you want to have – but you are NOT entitled to RESPECT for an UNINFORMED opinion.” A small difference, perhaps, but a crucial one.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, regardless. Whether or not others respect that opinion is an entirely different matter. I think “Actress X” is hideous. That is my informed opinion. It doesn’t matter to me how many others think she is beautiful or talented. I am still entitled to my opinion. People can make informed opinions based on misinformation and still believe they are well informed. Harlan Ellison is a perfect example of that case. “Well-informed” is, after all, just another opinion.
The corporatist right wing oligarchs who’ve been running this country for decades have used wedge issues, racism, sexism, and homophobia to separate the working class and prevent the kind of popular protest and uprising seen with OWS. In that context, Moore’s point about Miller’s misogyny and homophobia is completely relevant.
Unfortunately Miller’s opinion does matter because he is a very talented comic book artist, even though he seems to be way out of touch with reality. Miller and Moore are both major figures in the super hero genre. It’s interesting that their views are so far apart even though they in many ways speak to the same audience. Well, they do and they don’t.
Recently I was at the Komikazen festival in Ravena Italy where I met Magdy-El-Shafee, an Egyptian cartoonist whose work, Metro, was banned by the Mubarak regime. He said that V for Vendetta was a big influence on the uprising in Egypt. That’s a pretty big compliment in my book. And on the other hand the right in the U.S. seems to have made some use of 300.
I admit that I was a bit surprised by Miller’s comments because I have not followed his career in the last ten years. I remember reading his stuff in the 1980s and thinking well of it. I also remember meeting him when he shared a studio with Peter Kuper and Howard Chaykin and finding him to be a nice guy.
Taken literally, the entire super hero genre can be read as pretty Fascist. That’s why most of us DONT take it literally. Miller, it seems, does. I think that before he comments on the real world he should get a handle on the difference between writing fiction and writing journalism. You just can’t imply that a movement of thousands of people are rapists without some strong evidence to back that up.
I take this little flap as a positive sign. Things are coming to a head. The world is becoming more polarized and these two writers feel a need to take a stand. Good. The truth will out.
Both Miller and Moore seem, IMHO, to be way out of touch with reality. They just take their vacations far from each other in totally opposite directions. The reality is somewhere in the middle.
I believe the two words that come to mind are “Right” and “On.”
Thought I love Frank Miller’s work on Daredevil, The Dark Knight, Sin City, and 300, I agree with Alan Moore. Miller seems to be very narrow-minded, and his work of the past decade is not really worth the reading.
I was really disappointed with Miller for the first time when I saw the movie The Spirit. He just stole the work of Robert Rodriguez who was nice enough to credit him as a director on the Sin City movies. Then, Holy Terror appears to be violent propaganda, and now, he’s bashing on the Occupy movement with quiet offensive statements !
Getting older seems to have a poor effect on him as he’s becoming more of a irrelevant ‘jerk’ than the great artist he used to be.
I agree with Alan Moore – when I first read Frank Miller comment on The Occupy moment – I said What a fucking Asshole – he is clearly not in touch with reallity – I belive I read that Mr. Moore was unhappy with the movie adaptation of his book V – but I am happy to see the mask showing up in the movement – the movie did get me to read the comic
Thank you Mr. Moore for your writtings
What a measured and reasoned response… ordinary people reclaiming their rights. I love it.
I’m affraid, I can’t answer correctly to your post because my english is very poor. I have learned it reading Frank Miller’s comics…
Your English is nothing to be ashamed of, and certainly better than my and most Americans’ German.
Aw, you missed the joke.
Not as if it ever needed confirming, but there it is. Alan Moore a beacon of rationale, common sense and decency in the mire of hate-filled valueless modernity.
Way to go, Mr Moore. Eat your heart out, Mr Miller.
Well, said, Mr. Moore; your comments are intelligent and thoughtful. For years now I’ve felt that Frank Miller’s work is wildly over-rated. The Miller sensibility on display is both juvenile and somewhat fascist. If Frank had any class he’d keep his immature opinions to himself to conceal from his fans his shallow thinking and lack of political acumen.
glad you ask for comment, thank you, here’s my… statement:
I don’t give a fuck about any business star.
whether it is one from Hollywood or the underground,
or the now mainstream witch used to be the underground
or whatever the fuck it is out.
There is no such thing as any kind of genius who DESERVES more
than another.
We are a lot of 99.99%ters. with only one lifetime.
any other consideration is pointless.
I agree with Alan Moore’s thoughts on Frank Miller’s work. The racist, sexist revisionist work in 300 and Sin City was on point. The comic industry being center right conservative is true as well. Look at the lack of diversity in writers and artists to this day. Miller’s comments are a great way to maybe increase sales on his anti Muslim book Holy Terror. I’m just confused by how he can trash the Occupy movement of people defying the laws for freedom and yet get celebrated for his work on a rich white man who dresses up like a bat, drives through the ghettos and streets of Gotham beating the hell out of the criminal elements instead of letting the police do their jobs of becoming an officer himself. White male fantasies come to life. Is it a wonder why the sales are declining and the mainstream industry as a whole is in jeopardy ?
“White male fantasies come to life. Is it a wonder why the sales are declining and the mainstream industry as a whole is in jeopardy ?”
Sounds like you’ve been living with mom and dad too long.
There is a rich and diverse audience that gets off on the same stories.
That doesn’t really address what Justiceeahs said. The point is that the comics industry is in trouble because it does not speak to the wider experiences of a more diverse audience. Sure there are non white males who read comics, but such an audience is going to continue to be limited as long comics are limited in their perspective. And incidentally, ad hominem attacks speculating on where a person lives isn’t the way to convince anyone of anything.
With one swipe, Alan takes the lead as the ’80s comics titan one could bear to eat lunch with. Paleolithic beard trumps paleolithic outlook.
As usual I find myself baffled as to why people delightedly vilify or glorify an opinion of a noted individual in any field of entertainment because it squares with their view of the world. Honestly, what makes their viewpoint any more valid or invalid as opposed to any other being on this planet? Dialogue and debate are important linchpins of the political system in the United States and that dynamism is what has helped our nation survive, grow and thrive for over 200 years, but the opinions that tend to move things are in the political arena with the political players, not someone who scripts or draws a comic book. So, to summarize, I couldn’t care less what Miller or Moore think about the issues. They’re entitled to their opinions as anyone else, but what does it matter?
It matters to the extent that as an entertainer they have a platform that reaches further than the average person. In addition, writers in particular are often better at formulating their opinions in a clearer an more easily communicated fashion.
Other than that, you are correct and their opinion has no more inherent value than anyone else’s.
Agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
However, opinions should be expressed in a civil manner. Frank’s missive was disrepectful although it appears it comes from a place of considerable personal pain.
Yes but some people have more interesting opinions than others and are better able to make you see a different perspective than others. Many people, no matter how opinionated they seem to be, actually don’t have opinions. They’re Archie Bunkers from both the left and the right. They just repeat what certain news outlets repeat frequently. Moore, a student of film, history and Aleister Crowley, a consistent anarchist and bona fide eccentric at least has what seem to be well thought out and original views and has been able to create images that have gone viral in the culture independent of any marketing scheme. That’s actually fairly rare. He’s also a good story teller and that is also rare. If you look at the novelists that are favored by the New York Times and The New Yorker many of them aren’t telling stories or holding up a mirror to society, they’re just shuffling post modern word play around. The political commentators are just actors reading scripts written by ad agency guys taking orders from think tanks and corporations. Never underestimate independent writers or fail to see that creators of influential artwork approach something with discipline and that makes all the difference in the world. It’s why people like movies but don’t want to listen to a ranter on a public bus for fifteen minutes, even though the ranter is, of course, also entitled to his “opinion.”
They are good stories tellers not just because they can tell good stories but because they use those stories as vehicles for philosophical discussion. Every story that Moore and Miller have written that were considered earth-shattering or intriguing was considered that because of the themes and ideas that those stories represented. When Miller begins to voice himself like he has, his stories are taken differently because suddenly the stories are different. The context has changed. So for me, as a person who tends towards a more academic reading of any of their works, their personal opinions form the basis from which we view everything they create.
And even from a non-academic viewpoint, think about how insanely important major writers and their opinions have been to the world at large. People literally have their world views changed due to the themes presented in a good story. So when you see fanboys flocking to support the confused and frankly embarrassing perspective that Miller presents, you can’t just dismiss Miller’s power with his audience.
One also need to take into account the fact that the villians of Frank Miller’s works are often corrupt politicians, dirty cops, wealthy old money families that use the former to put themselves above legal repercussions for their acts, and organized crime working with all of the above. Which are exactly the people that the OWS are protesting about.
The Dark Knight would be kicking the Tar out of officer Tony Bologne. He would be eavesdropping on the meetings the mayor of New York was having with the wall street power brokers in which he agrees to spend millions of taxpayers dollars to keep the 1st amendment from bothering them. He would be snatching the agent provocateurs and violent junkies the PD was placing in the parks holding OWS encampments in an effort to make the protesters look bad.
Of course it matters. Even beyond the fact that a person’s point of view is going to influence the way they tell stories, there’s a financial consideration as well. Buying a comic like Holy Terror is putting money into Frank Miller’s pocket. That money may then find its way into the campaign coffers of a reactionary politician, helping that politician win. Are you saying you wouldn’t care if a popular actor turned out to a KKK Grand Wizard? If Russell Crowe announced himself as a white supremacist, I would think hard about not seeing any more of his films in the future.
Alan Moore is one of my favorite comics writers, even though he has been criticized himself (I remember a particular critique about the preponderance of rape imagery in Moore books). I think this is a reasoned response to Miller, although the swipe at Miller’s recent work might muddy the point (as his defenders may be more wont to defend his books when his viewpoints on Occupy are poorly reasoned/borderline pro-police state).
Sin City had problematic gender politics for days, but of course those books were based on pulp/noir, which had problematic gender politics (I guess there’s the argument that Moore could have moderated those influences or flipped them on their head).
Anyway…right on, Mr. Moore. Glad we share a first name. Ha.
The people who accused Moore of being misogynistic were only trying to draw attention to themselves as guardians of the fairer sex by targeting whatever they could to launch a public crusade against. They chose the very worst possible target for the cause in Alan Moore, and met with much shaming on their blogs as a result. That those critics almost immediately withdrew their accusations speaks volumes, and their criticisms were so absurd and so weak as to not even justify rebuttal. He’s one of the most socially progressive writers in any medium in the last thousand years, and certainly the least misogynistic male comic book writer of all time.
Miller on the other hand is just a fucking idiot. His rant seems to tie OWS to Al Qaeda at the end for… some reason, but he never really lays any of his ideas out clearly. It’s hard to even get offended by it because I don’t know what the hell he’s even talking about.
I used to think his comics were real cool when I was like, 16 years old. Swamp Thing and Watchmen, though, are comics I’ll keep loving til the day I die.
I think that Miller is stuck on 9/11 and views the OWS as a naive distraction to the war effort. In this end, I think he is barking at a brick wall – there are a lot of other things distracting from focusing on the war effort besides the OWS: our consumer society, the cult of personality, the economy, etc.
Miller could have put out a well-reasoned argument for/against the OWS, or on putting more focus on the war, or on veterans’ issues, etc., but chose to release a mess of vitrolic bile instead. Sad.
I’ve always preferred the tone of Moore’s work over over that Miller’s. I loved both V for Vendetta and the Watchmen.
@Bryan, I enjoy hearing what a really smart person thinks about things. Moore has a better understanding of politics than a lot of politicians IMO. And the Guy Fawkes masks seem to indicate that comics do matter or at least they do have an influence. Things have calmed down, but my problem with the initial reaction to Miller’s statement, even though I disagreed with what he said and how he said it, was the personal attacks and glee with which people went after him. As Moore said he can “agree to differ”
fuck frank miller! alan moore is the better man.
i have never met alan moore, but judging from the picture i suspect he smells. so he has that much in common with the occupy protestors.
he is a one trick hack. he takes characters others have created and gets cheap drama out of turning them into self loathing alcoholics. and after seeing his book “lost girls” i do not think he so be left unsupervised around children.
the protests themselves are now over, with only the feces left to clean up. not even worth discussing.
Wrong on all accounts.
One can have a full and Abrahamic beard without being unclean. As a matter of fact, if Mr Moore was unclean his thick beard would be all tangled and dreadlocked. It’s not ergo he is unsmelly and you are wrong.
Mr Moore is not a hack. Look up the definition of words before you miss use them.
OWS did not leave feces at any location. All the human waste came from homeless drug addicts that the police departments made a conserted effort to deliver into the parks where OWS is camped rather then taking them to jail. It is a deleberate and documented tactic that the police were directed to commit.
And lastly the OWS protests are very much alive and well.
You fail on all accounts.
As a matter of fact you are so far from the truth that the only reasonable conclusion one can come to is that you are either a paid propagandist hired by the 1% or that you are an escapee from 4chan sitting in your mothers basement upset thatreality has intruded into your semen stained frank miller induced violent fantasies.
Either way you are unfir for human society so please go away and quite spreading lies.
so glad you could take time away from your adventurous life, friends, and women to spend a saturday night getting in a fight on the internet about comic books.
i was a fan of alan moore from back in the d.r. and qinch days. it’s been down hill since. he takes characters and makes the dark. that’s all he does. i remember an interview where he talked about a possible take on tarzan. he would naturally have to go into the character’s pubescent sexual experimentation with the apes. i don’t know if the project ever got off the ground. i kind of hope not. now he is quite skilled at this technique. watchmen is a masterpiece. but that’s it. that’s the only trick he knows. that is the definition of a hack.
they have been sending crews of workers to clean up after the various occupy camps. curious spectacle watching a bunch of minorities in hazmat gear deal with the filth of spoiled white college punks. at the santa cruz camp they hauled off near 200 pounds of feces. if it were 500 pounds of crap i could make a michael moore joke.
how dare you accuse the saintly homeless of pooping all over the occupy camps. it is clear now that you are a heartless bigot. it is progressive dogma that bums only need a chance and a little love to uncover their true potential as a concert cellist or university professor. then there are the sexual assaults, thefts and anti semitism. suppose you’ll blame them on the homeless too.
and i have to say i love the delusional paranoia. the idea that the only reason someone could disagree with a progressive idea is that they are a paid stooge of the corporations shows a spectacular lack of introspection on your part. you really don’t have the capacity to see the other side of the argument, do you?
it has been my experience that old hippies who claim to be warlocks with huge beards reek. i am open to the possibility that he is is among the 1% who do not.
Hey now, you’re interfering with varmint’s Fox News-fueled delusions. That’s very mean.
By the way just in case you have seen the article on my homepage Alan Moore just joined the Occupy Comics’ fundraiser
curious to know if moore will be donating his own millions, he doesn’t deserve the money, or if he will simply be asking the poor and middle class to donate. before you buy this book demand to know what percentage of his own money moore has donated.
how about a tax of 90% on comic book royalties. think of how many children you could feed. spread the wealth.
will he be writing a comic book about the occupy movement? all he does is turn characters into violent racist alcoholic addicts, who steal, rape and crap on everything around them. but the occupiers are already there. quite the challenge for a writer.
P.S. If you hold the shift key down while you push another key your computer will capitalize that letter.
Not knowing simple rules of the language you are attempting to write in is one of the signs of a talentless hack.
I note hat Mr. Moore knows how to write and you don’t…
Oh look – another Craigslist poster recruited by the right.
Hmmm – let me guess. You are a democrat but are loath to vote democrat again because Obama is a non American Muslim who is going to turn this into a fascist, socialist, communist [pick one since they are each mutually exclusive and cannot be combined] state and while you loathe having to do it, you will hold your nose and vote republican in the next election.
Next you will attack me personally and if that doesn’t work, you will try to bait me into an argument by hurling insults at my belief system (or my gender or my intelligence) and, if all else fails, you will resort to ridiculing my spelling and grammar.
Did I miss anything there bucko?
i have never been among the birthers. i know the claims originally came from a clinton operative. and find it deeply embarassing the way they have been picked up by the right. nor do i think obama is a muslim. i kind of wish he were. a garden variety muslim would be a step up from the racist crackpot hate filled church he really went to.
the idea that socialism, fascism, and communism are mutually exclusive ideologies shows a staggering ignorance of 20th century history.
please explain to me where i sign up to get paid for this. til now i’ve been doing it for fun.
The first sign that someone is attempting to argue an untenable position is that they resort to insults and personal attacks rather than discussing issues. This is exactly what you have done here. You have defeated yourself with your own statements.
Eons ago–almost another life–I interviewed Frank Miller and enjoyed myself immensely. I don’t think it would be so much fun now. Alan Moore on the other hand…
Thank you once again Mr. Moore.
http://thefishshow.com/Archive/WATCHMEN%20UNMASKED.htm
I’m siding with Frank Miller on this one. The whole “occupy” protests seem undefined and disjointed. The movement seems more interested in harrassing the public than actually accomplishing something construtive. Quite honestly Alan Moore lives on the other side of the world. His commentary on US affairs don’t interest me.
Alan Moore does life on the other side of the world, but not the literal sense of “the world”, ha ha. I disagree with your thoughts on Occupy though. I’ve been passively involved and have been impressed with the seriousness of the bulk of the people involved and how on point the message has been, for the most of the part. The movement is not beyond critique, but FM seemed like his impressions were from third hand sources. If one had been to a General Assembly meeting or some of the actions, at least here in Oakland, it would make his statements laughable. World Of Warcraft? Grandma’s basement? Not even close. Its so not right, its not even wrong.
The Occupy movement has began in Madrid, Spain under the name “Los Indignados”, after the Arab Spring. It concerns the whole occidental world, not just the U.S.
They try to make a statement in a pacific way. Frank Miller’s words are just cruel and unfair.
Hello “Triston” – do you know varmin (his post is above) – if the mod were to check your IP addresses, would they come from the same place because I’m sure your paycheck is signed by the same organization.
Undefined and disjointed? Really. What part of “Get Corporate Money Out Of Government” don’t you understand? What part of “we worked hard and played by the rules and deserve a chance at a good job/career” is difficult for you? How about “they broke the rules and were rewarded; meanwhile destroying the American economy and the middle class” isn’t clear? And finally, “We need more regulations (EPA, Banking, FDA) or stronger oversight” escapes you.
Undefined and disjointed indeed.
If the occupy crowd is interested in getting “Corporate Money out of Goverment” (which I totally agree Corportations have no place in the Government’s decisions), then why aren’t they protesting in front of the White House or Capitol Building?? What is the purpose of pitching tents in privately owned parks across the country?? What is the point destroying the private property of fellow tax payers?? Even the most liberal cities, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, had to run these filthy people out of thier parks! I love the idea that a drum circle filled with pot smoking hippies is going to intimidate Corporate America! Really people, if you want change is the country you have to vote the corrupt politicians out of office…PERIOD! Frank Miller was entitled to his opinion. His words could have been a little more sensitive and respectful, but I believe his message was right on!
Thank you once again, Mr. Moore.
I was surprised at Frank Miller’s response. Not that he disapproved, as he always seemed conservative. It was surprising how inarticulate he was, how out of left field his assessments were and how he was simply wrong, wrong, wrong he was. Al Queda? WoW? Really? But I didn’t take away anything from him as an artist. He has written fine, fine works and as an artist he has been mind blowingly good for the field of comics. Sin City is sexist, 300 is historically inaccurate (though the movie was worse), but they are also fucking GOOD! Exciting, fun, well written stories. Its worth noting Alan Moore didn’t mention The Dark Knight, Year One or FM’s Daredevil material. Because they’re flawless. I am all for critiquing the easily wrong opinions of FM about Occupy, but his artistic achievements still stand strong.
There was a 20,000 man march on lower Manhattan last week, that hardly reads as “over” to me.
Articles like that are the reason Alan Moore remains as important and as relevant to me as he was when I first discovered him, where Frank Miller has been largely irrelevant to me less than a decade after discovering him. Alan isn’t always 100% right, but he’s usually refreshingly clear-headed and fair-minded, even when he’s tearing someone a new one. I just love reading his interviews, even now when he ahs almost nothing left to say about comics.
Well said, big Al – thankfully there are far more left leaning (even completely falling over to the left!) comic book creators nowadays. Probably the majority of the more ‘indie’ style ones are left of centre. And there are 2 or 3 pro-occupymovement related comic books coming soon. One edited by Matt Pizzolo has a kickstarter drive right now, and another is by my good self (in fact two: ‘Parecomic’, about alternatives to the current system, and ‘FTP’ about the history of popular protests).
Sean
Its disgusting to see man villified for making a late night rant, who hasn’t done that? Al’s attack on sin city is hypocritical and stupid; the art alone makes it better than arty comics like persepolis and the idea that its misogynistic is hilarious, every man in that comic is either a killer, psychopath etc, by Al’s arguments you might as well call it misandrist. Besides Moore has done countless comics with female nudity, if sin city is sexist so are quite a few Moore comics.
The idea that simply showing nudity makes a comic sexist is silly. Frank Miller stories tend to show half naked women for no story-telling purpose, along with a worlds full of musclemen proving how manly they are with violence. Moore on the other hand will show both male and female characters coming into their own, sometimes with violence, but always there is a growth in wisdom as well. Sex is a part of everyone’s journey, but Moore usually portrays sex as a beautiful part of life, not as an act of violence. To compare issue one of Allstar Batman vs the sex in Promethea or Watchmen is to compare fanfare to great graphic story telling.
So anybody who hates OWS is bad, as well as any recent work. But those who praise OWS are good and holy. You guys are so transparent.
Pure nonsense from Alan Moore. He didn’t read Miller’s post, he “heard about it”. “A gross reduction in the standard of living”? Did Moore not see all the iPhones, laptops and other assorted gadgets in the sea of well fed, well innoculated …and educated people at these protests? Yes, I know things are tough out there and people are angry. But this is America. We were founded by men who rolled up their sleeves and made a country out of a wilderness. The dream was kept alive by subsequent generations of men and women who faced hardships we couldn’t imagine today. Our great grandparents, grandparents and parents worked, sacrificed and bled so we could do better and this is what we get; a bunch of bitch ass whining from healthy middle class Americans? I’ve traveled the world and seen real poverty up close and it doesn’t exist here. Moore can sit in Europe and cast his disdainful judgments on America all he wants. He should look out his window and watch his continent going up in flames.
You are laboring under the misunderstanding that the American middle class is healthy. This is wrong on all accounts, in all definitions of the word “healthy.” The American middle class is full of people who are physcialy sick and with inadequate or non-existant healthcare. The American middle class as an entity is under attack and is shrinking and will, at the present rate be completely gone in a few decades. Your opinion is uninformed.
The middle class is also full of responsible, hard working people who are paying their bills, taxes and living within their means. It was this same middle class that voted in the mid terms last year and populates the Tea Party. None of us is entitled to a job, a house or entry into the middle class Pete. These things have to be earned. If anyone has attacked the middle class it’s the political party/philosophy that says that those people are “bitter clingers to their guns and religion”. If anyone has attacked the middle class it’s the political party that is addicted to raising taxes and telling us what kind of light bulbs we can use. This whole “middle class will soon vanish” class envy/warfare meme is so old it farts dust. It implies that soon there will only be the very wealthy and the very poor. Again, pure nonsense but you have to live with it not me.
Sorry but you are wrong. It started under the Clinton admin or maybe earlier but both parties have a record of creating jobs that pay at or near the minimum wage. Most Americans are in debt to credit card companies. Ever watch Fight Club? There is a reason Tyler Durdan could exist as a character in the mid 90s. It’s because the credit debt issue was a problem even then. While gas and food prices continue to raise, not to mention healthcare, wages have remained stagnant, and layoffs are ever more prevalent. So no, the middle class has not been living within it’s means for quite a long time. Jobs that pay well are systematically eliminated and brought back with lower wages so that people who were making $15/hr have to choose between doing similar work for 12 or simply not working and receiving nothing. There is nothing healthy about this. Even Adam Smith stated that people must be paid a wage that can sustain them, plus a little more or you will only have one generation of such workers. We are currently looking at the last generation of the middle class, unless those that stand up for us are listened to.
Wrong about what exactly? No one ever said that attaining anything of worth in this life would be easy. Wages are determined by what the marketplace says a set of skills is worth. The unskilled will always be the lowest paid. But who said you have to remain in one economic strata? If you want to be paid more you have to produce more value by learning the skills the market puts a premium on. It takes hard work and sacrifice to improve your economic position. Tyler Durden could’ve existed as a character at virtually any time. Every generation has it’s disenchantment with the status quo. Business exists to make a profit not provide jobs w/benefits. Freedom comes with risks and responsibilities. No one is promised anything.
Couldn’t agree more Tony! Thank you for making this response and saving me the time.
“We were founded by men who rolled up their sleeves and made a country out of a wilderness.”
Actually, we were founded by a bunch of men who committed mass genocide and stole the land of indigenous peoples, who were not, by the way, living in “wilderness.”
Our country was built largely on the backs of minorities and the poor – everything from slavery to child labor to the abuses of undocumented workers. We fought to make this better, and it was, to some degree. For a while. But let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the suffering of our great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents didn’t disproportionately benefit the rich. We’re just waking up again, that’s all.
Alan Moore IS Swamp Thing. He’s everything a comic writer SHOULD be. Frank Miller is a wannabe shock jock. Well, you’re in the wrong fukn field Frank so maybe you should pack up your things and go. You haven’t made a decent piece of work since the late 80s early 90s. Your latest work: Holy Terror was the most hyped piece of garbage since Souljah Boy’s “Crank That”.
Everything Frank does is a cry for attention and I (for one) am sick of it.
Both men respectable artists in their own right. But my friends, have you seen the other half of America? I have. And I for one am really thrilled that those who have some resources are standing up for those who have none.
By the way, that whole wilderness thing — There happen to have been people living on that wilderness your ancestors carved their way through.
And, even to the point of that particular myth, much of the carving was done by poor immigrants from China and Europe who did not themselves reap the rewards.
Our grandparents also fought for things like living wages, public schools, child labor laws, civil rights. They fought against fascism and tyranny, and yes — sacrificed in ways that many in this generation don’t yet understand. Something those generations bled for that we might do well to remember:
Injustice only grows if we let it stand unopposed.
“those who have some resources are standing up for those who have none”? There isn’t anyone in America without resources or the ability to redress wrongs. Welfare recipients are well fed, have medical benefits and possess the latest gadgets. Don’t take my word for it see for yourself. No matter what anyone thinks this is still a great country where opportunity and freedom beckon people to come here legally or otherwise. Yes, there were people living here when it was a wilderness. They’re still here. Yes, Chinese and others toiled long and hard to build a lot of things many years ago. It doesn’t make the greatness of this country a myth. Again, I ask: where does it say that any one of us is entitled to anything? Child labor laws, schools and civil rights were good things to fight for. So how does any of that disprove my arguments?
If you think there is no poverty in America then you have not read enough good comicbooks. Read Scalped by Jason Aaron. That reservation is based on a real one, the poorest in America. The Natives whose land was stolen are still mistreated. And instead of Chinese workers making railroads for pennies, now they’re making your cell phones. Civil rights was a good thing to fight for… still is, and always will be. In our secret prisons we hold many innocent Muslims and non Muslims, without trial. Meanwhile Obama argues that sending robots to wage war for over thirty days does not require Congressional approval, so he can wage war indefinitely. The only way to honor our grandfathers who fought to end fascism is to fight it here at home too.
Poverty in America is a pretty good deal compared to the poverty I’ve seen in other parts of the world. I didn’t read it in a comic nor see it in a movie. I saw it and smelled it. Even those at the bottom of America’s socioeconomic ladder are living like royalty compared to the real poor of this world. Don’t take my word for it, drive by your local projects or go to a supermarket frequented by welfare recipients on the 1st and the 15th of each month and tell me how many undernourished, ragged and sick people you see. The sorry state of affairs in the Indian reservation you mention is solely the fault of the White man right? Nothing to do with the high rates of drug use, out of wedlock births and alcoholism right? The Chinese are making cell phones and practically everything else. And what of it? Business goes where labor is cheap, it always has. If your cell phone and flat screen tv, sneakers and laptop were made in the USA how much would it cost? More or less? Those secret prisons aren’t so secret if everyone knows about them.
There isn’t anyone in America without the resources or ability to redress wrongs?
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/05/111205fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all
We are not entitled, Mr. Figueroa. I would say, more importantly, we owe.
There is nothing we have in this society that didn’t come from the toils of those who came before us and beside us. Let’s start with the entitlement we owe to those who have worked and provided for our society in years past, are entitled to the social security that our social contract promised them would be here now, for example.
Were you raised, housed, taught, tended to, entirely by your own efforts? Did you teach yourself to read? Build the hospitals that gave you care? Furnish the libraries? Build the internet single handedly? Do you owe the next generation nothing of what was given to you?
If I used the schools, and roads, and am furnished food and goods by the railroads, and water and power by the infrastructure that my grandparents provided for me, do I not owe it to future generations to maintain, and even improve the working order of those things which helped provide me with my own quality of life and opportunities?
My arguments about rights is highly relevant. Those things were hard won by those before me.
Do I have an entitlement to those rights? Well, the founding fathers might have said so.
They might also have said I had an responsibility to protect those rights from those who would push us back to an age where using human beings as everything from slaves to tools in the name of “social darwinism” was once acceptable practice.
Because, after all, someone did it for me — and you too, for that matter.
That middle class you are so proud to be a part of, wasn’t always there.
What makes you think that it might, if not supported and invested in, one day disappear?
While I enjoy a lot of what they both write. I could care less of what their political views are. I’m sure some of both of their beliefs and politics do show through in their work. Both have provided me with entertainment and many thought-provoking ideas. I do have to say that it is quite disingenuous of Mr. Moore to kick the comics industry in the teeth as he has made stacks of cash working in it. He also seems to be a quite contrary recluse.
Frank Miller?? Oh you mean the Batman Guy.. The man that reduced Sparta to a nation of Batman. And ruined as many comics as he did.. I am NOT surprised that his mindless ranting and repellent political views echos the crap that he writes. There was a song in the 80′s that summed it all up.. “Alan Moore knows the score. Can you dig it?” Well can you dig it NOW? I can..
All I see on TV are rich kids with thousands of dollars of camping equipment and electronics “Occupying” city parks in some of the most expensive places in the world to live. In their own confused way they are no different from the Tea Party gatherings of years past. Very few people with more wealth than I’ll ever attain and no cohesive message.
Come back when you’re organized and can put thousands of people in the street and ask me again.
Beware the television.
Personally, I feel that the OWS has been useless (particularly in my own area) and misdirected with no cohesive message. However, what makes better TV – people talking on message or screeching mentally ill hanger-ons fighting the police? The news is not impartial, they need ratings and reporters are rewarded for getting the most provocative images. It doesn’t matter if those images distort.
Following on from what I wrote before on this thread – We now have a lovely KICKSTARTER drive up and running, for our documentary style graphic novel – PARECOMIC. Its a 200 page graphic novel we are working on now and very much enjoying, but need a bit of funding support on.
‘Parecomic: Michael Albert and the Story of Participatory Economics’ by Sean Michael Wilson and Carl Thompson, with an introduction by Noam Chomsky.
“…a graphic novel about something that affects us all: the system we live in – what’s wrong with it, and how we might be able change it for the better! The recent upsurge in popular protest in the USA and around the world shows that people are not happy with the state of things. The Occupy movements show us that many people would prefer a better system, a model that will work for the 99%, not just the 1%.”
So, please go and have a look at the info and video there, and pledge some funding support if you like the PARECOMIC project. The money is only a PLEDGE at first, it does not get taken out of your account now, its taken out about 2 months later, if the total target money is made. To pledge you just select an amount from the choices on the right side, and it processes it via amazon:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/471898784/parecomic-a-documentary-graphic-novel
Thanks,
Sean